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Someday, Today will be a Long Time Ago

Roy Seaver's remembrances of the old days.

By Roy Seaver

April 6, 1977

One time in the long distant past a fairly young man and his wife and family left Lancaster County In Pennsylvania. They were heading west. They probably left that morning with mixed emotions. (I imagine it was morning don't you?) One, the joy of starting in quest of a new untamed country. The other of leaving friends and close relatives behind and perhaps forever. They were in two covered wagons. (again I imagine there were two wagons, because this couple had eleven children.) They left one lonely grave behind; a daughter named Martha who died at the age of about fifteen. I imagine this was around 1850 when they left.

These eleven children's names were: - Let me tell you who the couple were first: They were David Seaver Sr. and his wife Margret. Note how her name is spelled. It was spelled that way on her tomb stone. Now the children - not from the oldest to the youngest as I have forgot. David Jr., George Wesly, known as Wes. William Aaron, later known as Billy or Uncle Billy, who eventually came to be my grandfather. Abraham, John, James, Elizabeth; who never married and died from a cancer of the breast about 1894 at age 61. Katherine, Caroline, Margaret who married a man named Hulse and went to California and came back 61 years later for a visit, and Mary. She married Ed. Vermillion who died fairly young 1888. They had no children. Mary died February 15, 1907. I guess they started west around 1850 for I do know they lived a while in Terra Haute, Indiana, and the Sr. David ran a grist mill there run by a water wheel. While there William or "Billy" was working on the water wheel and somehow hurt his shoulder which left one shoulder lower than the other. Long years later when he was my grandfather he told us grandchildren his low shoulder was caused by reaching down picking bugs off his watermelon vines (he raised lots of melons) and I believed it till I was almost grown.

All these children except 3 lived, raised families and died around Fort Scott except Abraham (Abe) who lived for years east of Nevada, Missouri and died there, but is buried in Lath Branch Cemetery east of Fort Scott.
As I stated Margaret or "Mag" Hulse went to California, and james or "Jim" who also went to California at age 16 and never returned. I think Mag Hulse lived at Stockton. California and "Jim" at Fresno or it could be the other way around. We, here at Fort Scott think maybe Tom Seaver the famous ball player in the 1970's could be a decendent of "Jim" as Tom came from the same town.

In writing this I will probably "jump" around a lot, writing down things I remember just as they come to me.

David Seaver Sr. was born somewhere in the east, probably in Pennsylvania as they were "Pennsylvania Dutch" but really Germans. I imagine Margaret his wife was the same nationality.

David Sr. was born in the year May 1810. He died in July 1891 - age 81. His wife was born February 19, 1811 and died February 23 1892 age 81. Both are buried in LathBranch Cemetery.

Now I'm going to try to tell what I know or remember hearing about each of these children. I remember Mary. She died of a stroke; and her and her husband Ed. Vermillion are both buried in Lath Branch Cenetery. She was 75 when she died. Ed. died 1888. John never married. When I remember him he lived about one-half mile south of Lath Branch School house and what is usually called the back road or 8th street road. I think he was around 82 when he died.

My first name is John and I may have been named after him.

Abraham was married twice. I think his first wife who was an "Eddleman" from Lath Branch neighborhood died young. They had a girl named Lammie. Abraham born 1842 - died 1924 age 82. His second wife's name was Susie. They had two boys Ed and "Curt" (Probably Curtis). Curt had a son named Glen. I think Glen had 2 or 3 daughters.

Now about Margaret Seaver Hulse and "Jim" or James. I know nothing whatever about their families. Wes married "Kate" Allison. She was affectionaly known as far back as I can remember as "Aunt Fate" Seaver by those who knew her well and sometimes by the Seaver family as "Aunt Kate-Wes" as at that time there was another Kate Seaver. This is 1977 and she has been gone for many years but still people of the neighborhood speak of her and Uncle Wes' farm as "Aunt Kate Seavers' place" not Wes Seaver's place!

Now David Seaver Jr. born 1850 died 1945 - age 95. Lived and died on what is part of the original David Sr's. farm.

I might stop here and say that about the spring of 1858 after coming to Kansas in 1857 and wintering west of Fort Scott along the Marmaton river by what is known as Stewarts Dam; he, I think, homesteaded about 240 acres running east from what is now the East City limits south of Highway 54 l 1/2 miles then south 1/2 mile then west 1 1/2 miles. Some of his children became owners later of part of this original farm. John had 40 acres, Dave Jr. had 40 acres and Wes had 42 acres. Chester, son of Will and Ida still live on part of the original farm. The family home was just west of what most people speak of as the "Rock Filling Station" (see note on page 14) where a Mrs. Gardner now lives. It is a frame house now but before that was a stone house which I remember. It had a basement facing the north which was open north to the road. The family cooked and ate in the basement but the living quarters were upstairs. Really ground level at the back or south side. So when the women had a meal ready and the rest were upstairs, they had a school bell that was brought with them from Pennsylvania. They would ring the bell. I have been told that David Sr. always went barefooted in the summer. One time a summer storm came up, it looked like a tornado. He had heard when a tornado came to get outisde, get down low and hold on to something solid. So he ran and laid down by holding on to the trunk of a hedge tree. After the storm he said he never got such a whipping in his life as that tree gave him!

Now David Jr. (Uncle Dave as he was called in my time) married a Rhoda Flenner, I believe. They had 2 children, William or little Bill Seaver as most people called him. I think he was born in December 1877 and died in the early 1940's. In 43-44 or 45. He married Ida Allen and they had 3 children. Carl, Chester and Evelyn. Chester married Mildred Rogers and Evelyn married Billy Wiggans who was a preacher.

David's other child was a daughter named Norah. She married a "Rufe" Misner.

Now time went on and Uncle Dave got old, probably in his 80's and this was in the "Model T" days. Uncle Dave was walking to town. My cousin Howard Simmons with an old battered up noisy Model T, with the top down caught up with Uncle Dave and picked him up. The old rattly Ford was bouncing along in the east end of town and Uncle Dave said to let him out here. My cousin said "arent you going clear up town?" and Uncle Dave said yes but be -D--- if I'm going to ride any farther in this thing! So he got out and took out down the sidewalk - Ha. He was 94 or 96 when he died. George Wesley or Uncle Wes and Aunt Kate had two boys - Oscar and Mirt. Oscar worked in a bank in Parsons and Mirt married Nettle Schakelford. They had one daughter. Mildred who never married and now (1977) lives on South National Avenue in Fort Scott.

I may he a little vague or mixed up about Katherine Seaver, born 1837 - died 1921 and Caroline Seaver, born 1833 died 1862 - Age 29, but will tell it the way I now remember it.

I think Caroline married a man by the name of Richard Jacks. She had 2 children. Horace and Mag, who married Jim Shepherd a harness maker. Horace had a son named Byron, I think.

Now Caroline soon died and Richard Jacks married Caroline's sister Katherine. Born 1837 - died 1921 Age 84, who raised Horace and May. (Later - I'm not sure just who raised them)!!

Here is where I'm a little confused. Richard Jacks was a police man; He and Katherine had had a baby; I think the baby died soon after birth and Katherine was still in bed from child birth. Anyhow Richard was on duty at night, Katherine was alone and a nigger tried to get in the house with her. What happened I don't know. But about the same time Richard was killed in the line of duty. The shock of the whole thing left Katherine a nervous wreck and she was a little "off" the rest of her life. I remember her. I have been spelling her name starting with a K. Maybe it began with a C, as in my time most people spoke of her as "Cass". Both Caroline and Katherine are buried in Lath Branch as well as Rich Jacks and the baby and Horace Jacks.

Now about William Aaron; my grandfather. He married Francis Shannon always known as or called Fanny - I know very little of her family. Her father was a high ranking officer in the U.S. Army. Her mother died while she was young. She had a brother killed in the Civil War and another brother named probably Samuel but called Sammy. I remember him. Grandma Fanny told us grand children lots of things that happened "way back." The one I remember most was that Abraham Lincoln stayed all night at their house and he was so long they had to place chairs at the foot of the bed to make the bed longer for him. Also she said she sat on his lap. How old she was I'll never know.

Grandpa in his early days was a school teacher. Teaching in a log school house which sat on the ground which is now Lath Branch Cemetary. Later he and his father-in-law ran a clothing store situated where the Leipman Building is on the west side of North Main Street. Another time they ran a grocery store on the South West corner of Wall and Scott Avenue.

Grandpa and Grandma had nine children. Willie died at age 5 years and 4 months in 1870 and Carrie at age 1 1/2 years in 1868.

They were married April 10, 1864 in Fort Scott. The other children were Minnie, Sylvester "Ves". Oliver "Oll" Margaret "Mag", Wintford "Wint", Etta "Et" and Charley.

Minnie first married a Smith. They had one child Gertrude "Gertie". They separated and she married Louie Leppleman. No children.

"Ves" married Maggie Phillips. December 3 - 95. They had one child, Pearl, born 1896. She married John Wilcox. They had one boy, Clifford. John had a glass eye. when he was a boy a horse kicked him in the eye. Clifford married and lives in or around Kansas City. He was born around 1913. He really was married twice. Had a daughter by his first wife, they separated. He then married Joan Jaqua; (may be spelled wrong).

Now we come to my Grandpa William Aaron Seaver family. They had 9 children (guess I'm repeating). "Oll" married Mamie Hayes a niece of old Dr. Hayes daughter of John Hayes. They had 2 girls, Carrie born June 17, 1901 and Vinna, born February 8, 1903. Their mother died about the last of August in 1903. Grandpa and Grandma Seaver raised the two girls. "Oll" died in July 1917. Carrie married Howard Simmons. Vinna married Clyde Williams. "Mag" married John Fairman. They had one child Ora. He died January 21, 1977. Born 1899. Etta married Will Fairman a brother of John and they had five children. Willie and Herbie, Both died before they were 4 years old, then Charlie, Carl and Ethel. Will died around 1911-12. Ett. died 1942 or 43. Charles Seaver married Mamie Klontz. They had 6 children. Asher (committed suicide about age 20) Fannie, Hazel, Waneta, Leslie, Raymond (died a baby, maybe 2 years old), and Melvin.

Hazel married Jay Swartz. he committed suicide some time in the middle 1940's. Shot in the forehead, died 2 hours later in hospital. I helped load him in the ambulance. Now I'm down to my parents. Wint and Edith Gorse. They were married September 21. 1898. Five children were born to them. Roy (myself) May 1899. Glen, November 1904. Howard, January 1907. Frank, August 1911, and Naomi, September 1922. Naomi came along a little late. "Mom" was 39 and Dad was 44.

I married Mettie Hamilton December 14 1921. She died May 16, 1973. We had 4 children. Norman born January 27, 1923; a boy born February 11, 1925, lived only a few hours. Billy born April 24, 1926, and another boy born in February 7th 1928. It also only lived a few hours (no names).

Nonnan is now married to Barbara, a fine woman if you ever saw one. Norman had 3 girls by a former marriage, Marie, Kathleen and Linda. Kathleen died rather suddenly in 1974 age 16. Marie is married and has 2 girls (1977) a boy born 1978. All live in California around the Bay Area.

Billy first married Margaret Mitchell. They had Lois and Tommy. Lois lives in Olathe and Tommy lives in Pittsburg (June 77 in Olathe). After he and Margaret separated he married Wanda Bilyeu at Spring Hill, Kansas 1958. My she is a nice woman! They have a boy Alan and a girl Waneta.

My mother's parents came from Germany. Grandpa Gorse came from Hamburg at about 21 years of age to avoid the "draft" there. Was a stow-away on a sail ship that was 5 weeks getting to America. It came down the St. Laurence River to Buffalo, New York and froze in the river about a mile from shore in January 1867. They had to haul the freight to shore on the ice with oxen and sleds. He had less than a dollar when he landed here. One of his first jobs was a pick and shovel job. He didn't know our language and he was so glad he had a job and was working too hard! One of his co-workers tried to get him to slow down. He couldn't understand him. The man got more firm, louder! Grandpa thought he was cussing him and drew back his shovel to hit the man and the man smiled and showed him by signs and motions not to work so hard but watch the boss and rest while his head was turned and when he looked around work!

He had to work his way across on the ship; and while way out on the horizontal boom or sail pole that extends out past the side of the ship, the ship rocked way over his way and "doused" him under and he thought he would have to turn loose and come up for air, but the ship rocked back in time.

One time he was trying to get a job in a Methodist Community. After trying several places and was asked if he was a church member (Methodist) he said no. He then decided if he got a job he would have to be a "Methodist". So the next place he asked for a job they, as usual asked if he belonged to a church (Now grandpas talked awful "broken German" in my time) and so he told them yes, he was a METT-I-TUST; and he got the job but had to go to church with them every Sunday.

After getting home from church they would get a keg of whiskey out and all had a drink!! He died of a cancer of the stomach December 11, 1920. He had a driving mare named Mabel. He wanted me to "curry" her. He said for me to "Scratch" ol "Maple" while Grant ma got breakfast. One time he almost got stuck with his team coming up a hill. He said; "Dey couldn't hardly pull de hill up."

If us grand children weren't behaving he would say: "naw-naw-naw-ta-sa-sa." We didn't know what it meant, but we sure knew enough to behave. He was always good to us tho.

Grandma Gorse came over from Germany when she was about six I think. I don't know what part tho. About all I know of her, or about her is that her maiden name was Elizabeth Hood. I think she was born in 1848. Her father and mother were both dead by the time she was 13. Probably buried at Kansas City. She had a hard time from then on as the people that raised her was awful mean to her. Her and grandpa met while she was working in a restaurant in Kansas City. She had a brother killed in the Civil War.

Grandma died July 1920. Grandpa died December 1920. They are both buried in the Deerifled, Missouri cemetery. They had 7 children. Mary (died January 1920) Charlie, Oma, Emma, Frank (died 1968) and Edith, my mother (died 1963).

Charlie was killed in a Sheffied Mills accident in Kansas City in October 1907. Willie died as the result of a car accident about 1954 or 55.

Grandpa Gorse bought his farm just across the Kansas-Missouri line in Missouri from Indians. I was told he had to pay for it three times before he got a clear title to it. He ran a "line House" or saloon on his place near the State line before my time and later ran a saloon in "Clayton" or Eve, Missouri, until around 07-08 or 10.

Now back to Grandpa Seaver: Before there was a railroad in Fort Scott he hauled freight from Kansas City to Fort Scott by wagon. Once on a trip wolves began following him smelling the bacon he had, and surrounded the wagon so he cut off a piece and threw to them and while they fought over it he would drive fast to get away from them; but when the fight was over here they would come again so he would cut off another piece and so on until they gave up!

Another time as he was coming up a hill one of his horses "balked." He couldn't get it to go on so he unhitched the other horse, led it to the top of the hill and fed it. The balky one stood there hitched to the wagon and pawed and nickered. Then he hitched the other one back up and the balky one was ready and in a hurry to get to the top of the hill to be fed.

Grandma Seaver said when she was 8 or 10 her folks went to town and left her home planning on getting home before nite. But when evening came and she had what chores done she could, she lay down across the bed watching out the window for them and dropped off to sleep. She slept all night with out waking and the house open and Indians all threw the country then.

Something had detained her folks and they came home early the next day.

Another time: There was an Indian Cemetery close and instead of burying them it seems they tied the bodies upright or on a platform off the ground, with a picket fence around them. The dead bodies had beads on them. Grandma and some other girls took long sticks, reached thru the pickets and fished off some of the beads!!!

When I was a boy there was a man named Hamp Ward lived nearby. Here is a story told about him and 2 other men in the early days: They were in Fort Scott on horse back. They all 3 lived different directions from a crossroad near the state line. They had been drinking heavily. They decided to race each other to the state line which was beyond the crossroad where they turned off to get to their homes. All 3 in their minds were headed beyond the cross road to the State line, but their horses turned off at the cross road heading for their respective homes and all 3 men rolled off their horses as they (the horses) turned.

Hamp Ward told of being in the Anderson prison camp during the Civil War and men were starving. If a rat showed up they would shoot it and fight over it and eat it raw.

When I war a boy all country roads were dirt. Once me and my dad started to town in the buggy, from near the state line and the mud rolled up so wide on the front wheels it rubbed against the shafts. We turned back and went home. It was too hard for the horse to pull. We had gone only about one-half mile. At that time going east from Fort Scott on what is now 54, to the state line, the only bridge or culvert was across Lath Branch. All the rest of the branches and little streams you forded. Lath branch bridge was at a different place from where it is now.

One time in the 1920's a man was crossing the old bridge with a steam engine and grain separator and the engine had just got across, and the bridge broke down taking the separator with it. The separator was never removed and when the road war straightened and re-built the separator was covered in the fill and is still there till this day.

(Note from page 4) At the old Rock Filling Station location. there is a well the Seaver family used. They probably dug it, and it is said that soldiers traveling by headed for or from the Military Ford where the old Military Bridge is now, would stop and water their horses from this well. That was the route of the Old Military Road from Fort Gibson going north toward Fort Riley.

The Beal family were real early settlers east of town as were the Rileys. I know very little about either family. When I was about maybe 17 there was a "tramp" came walking in to the Beal yard. Actually he was one of the older generation of the Beal family. He had walked away from the family home 40 years earlier and had been a "tramp" all that time and no one here had ever heard from him. Didn't know if he was dead or alive. I think he stayed around a few weeks and took out again!

In April 1904 there was a flood on the Marmaton River. Robert Hamilton and his wife Mettie and daughter Elsie, about 2, lived in a small two room house on the south bank of the Marmaton River on the west side of the road, where the crossing is known as "Slick Rock." The river was rising. Rob walked to town up the railroad track for groceries in the afternoon. He had a boat tied to a tree in the river back of the house. As the river would rise he would pull the boat up closer and tie it to another tree closer. By dark the water was getting around the house. He and his father-in-law Jim Scott had a sawmill there. The river kept raising and about 10 o'clock at night Rob Mettie (wife) and Elsie got in the boat (as water was coming in the house) after putting a few things (furniture) on the table, and rowed out to the sawmill engine which was still warm, and sat on top of it until daylight. It had quit raining when daylight came and they got in the boat and came south to the foot of the hill. Jim Scott came about daylight from about 2 miles south of there and was waiting at the foot of the hill for them. I remember the flood. It was shortly after daylight when Jim Scott came by my dads place and dad said: "I wonder where Jim Scott is going so early this morning?"

After the water went down my dad and Uncle "Oll" helped clean the mud out of the house and took the rag carpet down to the river and washed it. I remember dad coming home and telling all about the mud in the house and washing the carpet. By the way - a new sewing machine was setting on the table and water got so high the table tipped over. Mettie my wife wasn't born until April 1905. She had the sewing machine after we were married until in the 60's.

Somewhere about 1908 or '10 there was a Christmas program at Victory Schoolhouse. It was a very pleasant evening for December. Although the wind was blowing real strong from the south. We went to the program in a spring wagon. Dad let us out at the schoolhouse. About a block east was Rileys farm. Dad took the team back there and unhitched them and tied them on the north side of the barn, out of the wind.

About midway thru the program someone came in saying the wind had changed to the north and very cold and snowing hard. Dad went to see about his horses. He said they were so cold they were just "dancing" around. So, he hitched them back up and drove them up and down the road from Rileys place to Beals, about 2 blocks in the trot till the program was over, so as to warm them up! I remember coming out of the schoolhouse and dad out there waiting for us.

Then there was the "September Flood" as most old timers called it. It was Sept 7, 1915. It had been a rainy spell and the night of the 6th it rained all night. Heavier west near Uniontown. And by noon water was all over Belltown. The Belltown bridge over the Marmaton was a two span steel bridge. A house came floating down and hit one section knocking it off its supporting pillars and down it went in river. After the river had gone down traffic forded the river just east of the bridge. Remember most traffic was horse drawn in 1915. That was the biggest flood here in history and still holds the record. On east Wall street water was over the street east of the Frisco tracks and maybe even over the tracks. It got up to the windows of the old Katy Depot on North National Avenue. Water was backed up "Old Buck Run" to sixth street. "Katy" steam locomotives were setting on the tracks near National Avenue and water got halfway up the aide on them putting out the fire in them.

It was several months before a new bridge was built and the only other way to cross the river was over the 2nd street bridge. Here where I live now on Slick Rock Road, it was clear up to the bottom of the hill.

Mettie's grandma Hamilton came to Kansas when she was 16 years old (in a covered wagon of course) from East St. Louis, Illinois. I don't know who she was with but they came to the neighborhood of Center School north of Slick Rock Crossing. She told of meeting a circus on the way here, near Nevada, Missouri, I think. It was traveling overland, coming right down the road. Horses camels giraffes, elephants etc.! I think her maiden name was Shinn. She had two half brothers Charlie and Kale. I don't know if this happened here in Kansas or Illinois. She was several years older than Charlie. They had a well at the foot of a hill. She went to get a bucket of water. Charlie ran ahead of her. The well had no "curb" over it. Just a floor with hole to draw water thru. The cover was off the hole. Charlie didn't stop in time and fell in the hole. The well was almost full. She ran and leaned over and hollered "give me your hand Charlie," and as he came up his hand was sticking up so she grabbed his hand and pulled him out. And saved him. He and Kale or Cale lived and died around Baxter Springs, Kansas.

My grandma Seavers told of her grandmother on her father's side living with them when she was a small girl. That would have been my great-great grandma. Well she lived to be 107 years old. She got very "childish." When my grandma would get a new doll the old grandma would have to have one too!! Now think of this: My grandma was born in 1848. If the old grandma was 107, say when my grandma was 7 the old grandma was probably born in or around 1748, give or take a few years.

We have just celebrated the 200th year of our United States. If the old grandma was born around even 1750 she would have been around 26 years old at the time of the signing of the Declaration of Independence and could have told my grandma first handed about George Washington and the Revolutionary War. And to think I and you Norman knew and talked to a woman (my grandma Seaver) who knew and talked to a woman born at least 25 years before the Revolutionary War!! Over 225 years ago now 1977. Isn't that something!

Now back to Hamp Ward see page 13. He had a baby die in 1861. He had a daughter Joann or Johan who married Rose Norris. The parents of Lizzie and ~iuna Norris Simmons. Joann died 1961 - 100 years after her brother, in 1861.

There was an early settler named Peter Riley. He and his family lived about a mile west of the Missouri State line on what is now known as Highway 54. But when I was a boy it was known as the "Nevada Road." Peter Riley died in 1907. My dad, Uncle Ves and "Jack" Sauvain net up with him during his last illness. I think they were with him when he died. He was what was called a "country preacher". I heard him preach in the old frame Victory School House. He had been married 3 times. I was told once that in the pulpet he said he had 3 wives, one in heaven, one in hell and oneon earth! I think one of his wives was an Indian. It was said his funeral was one of the largest ever known at that time around Fort Scott.

Back to the Hamiltons: John, Mettie's uncle told me about this. During the Civil War and General Prices raid in Eastern Kansas, Price war coming south from Pleasanton intending to raid Fort Scott but was met north of town and turned east and went near the Center and Shilow school area. During the skirmish that ensued a horse got its leg broken. And was left there. The old Hamiltons took the horse, doctored it up and kept it for a work horse. John later said he remembered the horse and had worked it when he was a boy. Read: "Early Days of Fort Scott" about "Prices Raid."

Now back to the Seavers. Mildred Seaver my cousin told me her grandpa, who was one of the children of David Sr. that came to Kansas with his parents from Pennsylvania said they were headed for California but upon reaching Fort Scott were so tired of traveling they decided to stop a few weeks and rest up and during that time decided they liked it here and just stayed. I read recently that in 1860 the population of Fort Scott was 262. Seavers came in 1855. January 1978 a 50-year ago item in the Tribune says they came November 10, 1857. It reads as follows:

50 Years ago (1928)

Mr. G.W. Seaver, better known as "Uncle Wes" of the Lath Branch neighborhood, celebrated his 82nd birthday Monday January 16. He is one of the oldest living pioneers coming to Kansas from Pennsylvania with his father, mother and 11 brothers, November 10, 1857. They made their first camp on First Street near where the Buck Run Bridge now stands. Later they occupied a log cabin near Stuart's Dam. For 72 years Mr. Seaver has lived continuously on his farm one mile east of Fort Scott enjoying the highest esteem of a host of friends. He is the only one living who came to Fort Scott at the same time. The late Mrs. Charles Goodlander being the last to pass on. Mr. Seaver helped cut the trees for the old Blockhouse that now stands on the Plaza. He also gave out valiant service in the Civil War as a member of the Sixth Kansas Cavalry. He carried the mail from Fort Scott to the Indian Territory in 1861.

Now I am 80 years old, in the same age group as these I have written about were when I remember them. Even as they have gone the way of all mankind. I, too, will soon finish my pilgrimage here on Earth and go to meet my maker; and maybe 50 years from now someone will be saying: "yes I remember him or her, you or me, when I was young, don't you remember them?" And so it is and always will be down thru the ages to come, someone will be saying; "I remember, I remember, I remember, and on, and on, and on ......"

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